June 19, 2013
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The Divinity of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ was a Jew. Most people know that much. I’m not sure that he intended to have his followers split from Judaism and start a new religion called Christianity. I believe he simply wanted to teach his fellow Jews, and anyone else who would listen, to be more devout in their worship of God. At the time when Jesus lived, many in that part of the world were trying to decide what they believed about God, and how best to live as God-fearing people.
Myself, I don’t believe he was literally, physically the Son of God. I believe Christ lived, and that he was a great philosopher & religious leader. He taught many valuable principles of how mankind could live in peace with others. I personally don’t believe in the Immaculate Conception. I believe he was purely a human being. This takes nothing away from the influence he had on Mankind at all.
I’m not sure Jesus Christ himself believed he was “literally”, physically the Son of God. He does refer to God as the Father of all Mankind. Just as when Europeans came to America, they referred to the king as “The Great White Father” when dealing with the natives. When saying the Lord’s Prayer, Christians say “Our father, who art in Heaven”, and yet they are not saying God is actually their father. All, or at least a vast majority, would tell you they have an actual human man who fathered them.
Comments (79)
i don’t want to bring up an argument or anything, but i’ve always wondered this about the people who believe Jesus was a “good” man, philosopher, leader, yet didn’t believe He was the Son of God. if you believe He was all of those things, & He said He was the Son of God, yet you don’t believe that, then that means He is a liar, so how can he be all of those things? just curious.
very interesting…
I’m not sure he believed he was “literally” physically the Son of God. He does refer to God as the Father of all Mankind. Just as when Europans came to America, they referred to the king as “The Great White Father” when dealing with the natives.
Hmm, I don’t agree with your view, but each to their own.
Xo
@JessxMaxine - Exactly. It’s why I put these posts out there. I try to find out what others believe, and how they got there.
I know a lot of people who do believe that, and most tend to believe more in judaism than chrisianity, but its not always the case either. Im full on christian, but it was nice hearing your perspective.
It seems that we have twin brains.
@flashbulb100w - Too cool! The history of Mankind’s religious beliefs is fascinating to me!
This is a prespective that many hold. I think you should pursue this journey if that is where your interests and faith lie. Judi
You can believe in what you want…
But I have a question. How can you believe any of his teachings and/or principles if you can’t trust who wrote them? After all, the same people who wrote down what he said held the belief that he was the son of God… and it certainly had an influence on their writtings. I don’t expect you to answer. I don’t want to spark a debate. Just a question to think about, I suppose.
In a documentary on The History Channel they have “the bible uncovered” where they stated that in old scriptures, Jesus was actually a follower of another prophet, that was as wise and kind as Jesus was, and that Jesus just followed in his footsteps. I do believe that there is a higher power at work, all religions have a “god” that they follow. So yes, I do think the same way as you do, I believe in a higher power, but not in every word written in the bible, because most scriptures are inncorrectly translated, and also left out of the bible.
I agree with your first commentator. There are really only two options, you say that he was a great philosopher and religious leader, therefore he must be a truthteller. Therefore, if He was telling the truth He was God, if He was not telling the truth, he could not be a good man etc. Therefore, He was either God or He was a bad man. A good man etc. would not be telling people to follow Him and worship Him.
Now, there is also the issue of insanity. The measure of insanity is measured by the gap of who you are, and who you think you are. I could be an 18 year old young man, but say, and believe, that I am an 85 year old poached egg. Based on this, you would say that I was off my nut. But for a man to say he was God is bordering on insanity. Unless of course that man actually was God.
In summation, either Jesus Christ is simply a good man, He is God, or he is the most black hearted liar.
If he was not God, he could not be a good man. Because a good man would not lie about such a serious issue.
He could not be a black hearted liar, because it is almost an absolute consensus that he was, at the least, a good man.
Therefore, he must be God
I am a Christian, which means follower of Christ…I believe 100% of the Bible is fact…I believe God gave us the greatest gift of all His Son Jesus for us to be saved God had to become man to do all the things he did one of which to die on the cross for our sins in this one act of love we are saved by His Grace,,,
Blessings
Mae
@robynnator - @jmallory - @SisterMom1954 - @Undercover_Librarian -
There are other perspectives, whether true or not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKs9cYegSt4
@lonelywanderer2 - You are basing your assumption on one extra-biblical example, natives calling white men, white fathers or white Gods. The Jews weren’t an illiterate secluded civilization to do so likewise. They knew who “God” was and theirs was a monotheistic tradition. So it is fallacy to believe them ignorants who simply assumed this “great man” was a God. The story of the Gospels is that he proved to them throughout his life that he was the Son of God. To the contrary, the Jews were expecting a Messiah or Savior to deliver them of their oppression. It was prophesied, and thereby delievered. For those who did not believe then, they still await their Messiah..
@roxics - Thank you for sharing that video. It’s one I hadn’t seen before.
@robynnator - @lonelywanderer2 - @jmallory - @Undercover_Librarian -
C.S. Lewis ‘Mere Christianity’ page 56
“I am trying here to prevent
anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m
ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to
be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and
said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would
either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else
he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was,
and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up
for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His
feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us.
He did not intend to.“
i agree that its hard for Jesus to be a great moral teacher and a liar at the same time. and he made no mistakes about point blank saying that he was quite literally the son of God but in a sense i see what you mean by calling him a great moral/religious teacher etc.i just dont’ necessarily “fully” agree.
@Xx_Kittt_xX - you said everything I was trying to say. Bravo!!
@Xx_Kittt_xX -, Undercover_Librarian Thank you for sharing you thoughts. As for fully agreeing, it’s a product of each of us being able to think and act freely that we will seldom fully agree. We each see it from our own perspective. That’s not a bad thing.
@Undercover_Librarian - thank you. i’m a c.s. lewis geek so the second i read this post i thought of that quote and immediately looked it up
lol
@lonelywanderer2 - you are quite welcome. agreed. i always enjoy your posts, because although we may disagree, you are always open to many opinions and thats very honorable
great blog.
@roxics - But there you said it, whether true or not… I didn’t want to say anything and spark a debate, but I am too stubborn to not say anything! You see, you trust the people who are experts in subjects, correct? Like, I would not go to an english teacher for a question about math, would I?
The people who made that video clearly proved they weren’t experts the second they said that Mark had to have been written after CE 70 because it mentions the destruction of the temple… but none of the gospels mention that… so how can that video be trusted on any of it’s info? It can’t… However, the cannonization of the bible checks… and it’s clear why the books are there and why books aren’t.
Now I am not one to tell people what to believe… but at least use common sense and don’t put your trust in these videos like zeitgeist and the rest without checking your resources and every bit of information they provide.
If this sounded bitter or hostile, it wasn’t my intention. It is hard to understand tones while reading something that is typed out.
I feel this way about all religious figures. If I had to slump myself into a category, I’d say I’m Buddhist or Taoist in my thinking.
@undertheglass - Very cool. I know I love reading what you write. It’s always interesting and eloquently stated.
@RogonTombiruo - No profile, no photos, no weblog history. Gee, an account created just for this comment? What ya hiding from?
@RogonTombiruo - I like hearing all legitimate viewpoints, and don’t want others calling names and being rude to my readers.
Judaism and Christianity are religions. No where in the bible is the word religion found. Christ did not intend for anyone to have a religion, but to have truth and to follow Him.
Religion was not created by God.
Christ did not come simply for the Jews, but for the entire world.
John 3:17 (and several other scriptures) states this fact. The word used for world is a Greek word Kosmos meaning “the world and it’s inhabitants.” Everyone.
I’m not trying to be a jerk and try to prove you wrong or anything. You have you view point, which I respect… I just thought you might be interested.
Have a great day.
@duckyismyhero08 -
The definition for religion is (according to dictionary.com)
“a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.”
The word is just a way to describe things. It doesn’t mean anything other then the definition stated above. So yes Christianity is by default a religion and so is any belief system.
@jmallory - The destruction of the temple is debatable. Some say it was a prediction (common prediction at that) and some say it was proof the book was written later. I’ll give it to you that the way Flemming approached it was very biased in that he already picked a side when making that statement in the film. But the film aside, there is still room for debate on the issue.
Like I said before, it’s just another perspective.
@duckyismyhero08 - I tried to find a blog I had done on this, but will address this again soon. According to one show I watched that compared the 3 major religions, the prophet Mohammed was told by Allah “The message I give to you is the same message given to the Jews, and to the Christians”.
@roxics - You’re right. And where there is religion (or lack there of) there will always be these debatable questions. I just have no reason to believe- after what was recorded of Jesus already- that it was written beforehand.
Very thought provoking. My perspective on christianity, and my faith is unique. Maybe someday I will blog about it.
@mimic1983 - I look forward to reading it.
your beliefs on jesus are in line with mine
C.S. Lewis once said that, after reading the Bible, one is left with only three choices regarding Jesus of Nazareth:
1). Jesus was a raving lunatic, on the order of a man who claims to be a tuna fish sandwich.
2). Jesus was a demon of deception straight from Hell.
3). Jesus was precisely who He claimed to be; the only begotten Son of God.
Anything other than these three conclusions is a compromise with evidence and truth.
Here are a couple videos I think may provoke some thought for you on this topic. The arguments are articulated well.
Is Jesus God?
Did Jesus rise from death?
Why should we worship Jesus?
@ProvokingThought - Appreciate it. I’ll watch them later tonight.
I like that you don’t mind giving your point of view! I have to say, I’ve thought along the same lines all my life which, in the religion I was raised, was heresy. Since Jesus was shown to be a good man, what is the problem if I don’t necessarily believe he was God’s ONLY son. We are all God’s children
The topic of Jesus is huge but specific. And it is well studied and thoroughly explained. The bottom line is that Jesus came at a particular time, in a particular place, for a particular reason.
So making the statement, “I’m not sure that he intended to have his followers split from Judaism and start a new religion called Christianity,” expresses an extremely superficial understanding of the topic.
The superficiality morphs into strangeness with the next sentence, “He simply wanted to teach his fellow Jews to be more devout in their worship of God.”
If as stated, you are not sure about Jesus purpose, than how can you possibly know “what he simply wanted to teach his fellow Jews?” It follows logically that if you don’t know what you are talking about on a certain topic than you are certainly not in a position to instruct others on that topic.
When saying the Lord’s Prayer, Christians say “Our father, who art in Heaven”, and yet they are not saying God is actually their father.
Yes they are. The reason is because the Lord’s Prayer and its meaning come from Jesus himself, who referred many times to God, the Father. Jesus even told his disciples that they may refer to God the Father as “Abba” (Daddy, or Papa), a term of family and familiarity.
We are all god’s children? I can accept that. It’s a metaphor, people.
Whether or not Jesus was/is the Son of God makes all the difference in the world on the influence he had on the world. The central doctrine of Christianity is not the teachings that Jesus gave us (although they are important) but the crucifixtion and resurrection. The influence that Jesus has on the world is not just new standards of morality and social ideals, but the transformation of everything through the power of the resurrection. And Christians do believe that God is their Father. Yes, we all have earthly fathers…but we are created by God, and one day will be transformed (even at this moment we are being transformed) into begotten sons and daughters of God, like Jesus.
Wow, never saw the divinity of Jesus this way. I have become speechless, maybe I should read the Bible more carefully and thoroughly for answers. I think Christianity is just a name so that the followers will constantly know who they are learning from and know what they can address themselves with, this name unites all in Christ, but separates them from the other Jews. I don’t think this name is very significant. Most importantly, it is the way of the followers that gives a religion credit. We should walk in the way of love, compassion and righteousness. While having a strong sense of justice, our actions must not be unkind. Emphasising the adherence to the Law isn’t what Jesus taught, we would naturally avoid sinning if we sincerely follow God. Furthermore, sinning causes a chain of problems, both predictable and unpredictable problems. I have sinned some time ago, even though I stopped sinning or even thinking about sinning now, no matter how much I prayed. I must still suffer from the earthly consequences, I may still be admitted to the Heaven since I have not committed the UNFORGIVABLE SIN, but as long as I live, I must eat the fruits of my wrongdoings.
He simply wanted to teach his fellow Jews to be more devout in their worship of God.
It was more than that. He was the fulfillment of prophecy of the Jewish messiah. He wanted them to believe that he was sent from God to die for their sins.
I’m not sure Jesus Christ himself believed he was “literally”, physically the Son of God.
He said – “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Jesus knew who he was.
lets hear it for the mormons!
@duckyismyhero08 - No where in the bible is the word religion found.
I guess you haven’t read the bible. James 1:26-27
I don’t think the fallacy in mainstream Christian dogma is in the divinity of Jesus, but rather in the non-divinity of the rest of humanity. He indiciated to the multitudes who had gathered to listen to him and said, “This is my family.” He also said, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Aside from the fact that I don’t have an apocalyptic outlook, that I don’t believe that humans are “fallen,” that I don’t believe in Judgment Day or any sort of afterlife at all, that I do not accept the virgin birth or the bodily resurrection of Jesus, I also have a very esoteric view of who Jesus is and what his message is.
I think that Jesus arrived when and where he did, that he lived, taught and died the way he did, to transmit a message of truth to all of us. It is not important that two millenia of political revisions and translation garbling have mangled the account almost beyond recognition – the pure kernal of transcendent truth remains there for those who seek it in earnest contemplation.
That message is forgiveness.
this is probably the reason why I feel drawn towards christ… he was a sacrificing man who lived to serve others…a good human being…
Honestly, I’m not sure if it makes a difference. Follow his teachings, do what is right, love your neighbor, and then you can ask him how literally he was the son of god when you get to heaven.
@Xx_Kittt_xX - I was just yesterday rereading C.S. Lewis The Abolition of Man and I must say Lewis has a tremendous intellect, and I think his analysis of how to respond to Jesus in Mere Christianity was “spot on”
I agree with you. I think he was a purely enlightened being. He represented what we could all become, transformed.
Yes, Jesus was the only ‘fathered” son of God. We pray to “Our Father…” because that is what Jesus taught us to do. Jesus and the Father are one. The first believers were called Christians after Jesus ascended to Heaven after He rose from the dead but “Christianity” as a word is not in the bible. I’m not sure what Christianity is. I guess people call me a Christian. Christianity has done a lot of harm.
Your beliefs are not consistent with the Judeo-Christianity and are false. In the New Testament Jesus indicates many times that he knew exactly who he was. What Jesus did and said was witnessed by thousands of people at the time. So there is no room for misunderstanding unless you want to make up your own home grown version, which would be a lie.
God revealed himself to mankind through the Hebrews. It was with the Hebrews that God established covenants. Jesus was a descendant of King David, a Hebrew King, he just didn’t pop up out of nowhere.
Jesus brought the New Covenant. He sealed the deal with his body and blood.
Christianity was established by Jesus himself.
If we could read the scriptures as they were actually written things would be a lot clearer. Unfortunately all the revisions, deletions, etc., put a spin on it. But this post was extremely well written and, if you don’t mind, I’d like to link it on my site. I’ll wait for your approval/denial via messaging in case I forget to come back to check your answer.
i still am trying to understand why a great man would say, worship me so that you will be saved… isn’t that some kind of a “cult” statement? well, all my Christian life, we’ve been taught that Jesus said those words… that it is only through Jesus that we will find salvation… why can’t we find salvation straight from God?
@TheEmeraldPixie - Thank you! I’m honored, and would be glad to have you link it on your site.
You also might enjoy the following two posts, and have my permission to link to any or all of the three.
On God and Satan, Good and Evil
Your God Or Your Life?!
Interesting post. I am glad to see someone willing to discuss these things and keep an open mind.
I’m not big on discussing religion, but ^_^ I love you for this one.
haha and now people will convert to Judaism. And the extremists will blame YOU! lol
@lonelystrangergirl - Oh NOES; I just put a bullseye on my back, hmmm?
^_^ everyone but the JCC will hunt you down, brothaa.
Jesus is either Lord, Liar or Lunatic if the evidence is considered. To call Him anything else is just ignorant!
As C S Lewis pointed out, anyone studying the evidence of Jesus of Nazareth may conclude He is a lunatic, a liar or The Lord God Made Flesh. Any other conclusion is simply ignorant.
interesting!
I also don’t believe that the conception was immaculate. And, I don’t think it matters whether it was or not. Jesus was still Jesus.
But, I also don’t believe a lot of his teachings either.
No, Jesus definitely claims to be God. First of all, he is claimed to be born of a virgin. That is NOT something that happens with an ordinary human. He performed miracles, which is NOT something that ordinary humans do. Here are some versus where Jesus makes claims of his divinity.
“The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”" John 4:25-26
“Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am”" John 8:54-58
“Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.” John 14:19-20
These are just few claims. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus speaks as though he is divine. The pharisees become angry at him BECAUSE he makes these claims. Jesus is either divine, or an insane, lying human. I believe he is who he says he is.
@TheEmeraldPixie - that actually isn’t a problem. The main versions of the Bible, like NIV, King James, etc are as about as close to the original Hebrew texts as can be done in translation. The teams that translated the Bibles worked very hard and meticulously to ensure that the Bible was translated as accurately as possible. There are words here and there whose Hebrew meaning can be a bit ambiguous, but usually the alternate meanings are provided in footnotes.
Interesting. 2 years strong, eh?
@MyxlDove - Absolutely. I’m no quitter!
For what is worth I think any person who is serious about history has to question the whether we have any real picture of the historical Christ…irrespective of whether he was divine, a man or a myth. Their was too much church prosecution and manipulation to really say above all doubt that we have an accurate picture. Off course through faith people can believe but based on fact even Christian Scholars came to the conclusion that the evidence we have is not conclusive. That does not mean we have a wrong picture but it does mean we can not be certain. The associations between the Christ and pagan mythology is astounding. One has to consider the possibility that the story of Christ was heavily influenced by pagan mythology of a God man. Again it does not show conclusively who or what Jesus was but it does give reason to be weary of making any definite statement. Jesus defy logic and reason but we can all learn, appreciate and apply the principles which are connected to his teachings.
@Zeal4living - Exactly!
I’m not sure that he intended to have his followers split from Judaism and start a new religion called Christianity.
At the last supper Jesus took the cup and said – “This is my blood of the NEW testament. Jesus knew he was starting something new and different from the Old Testament and religion of Judaism.
I believe Christ lived, and that he was a great philosopher & religious leader.
Was he great when he said he is the only way to God or when spoke of people going to hell?
I’m not sure Jesus Christ himself believed he was “literally”, physically the Son of God.
Jesus said that God so loved the world that he gave his ONLY begotten son (speaking of himself), that whosoever believes in him (Jesus) should not perish but have everlasting life.
Well my friend, the best moral teachings will lead you to the same end as the most scandalous if that’s all you get from Christ. Without his atoning death and victorious resurrection, all I have is a ticking clock, and moral teachings become quite unimportant.
… if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (1Co 15:14-15)
It isn’t in following Ye’shua’s teachings and commandments that righteousness lies for me. It’s in my faith in Him according to the God who sent him – His father. I hope and pray that God will draw you to himself through His risen and everliving son Ye’shua in His own time… to everything there is a time and a season. He holds the keys of hell and death, for me, and for you my friend. He’s gonna be a good guy to know and be known by when we wake up in a coffin one day.
… Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1:17-18)
I wish you well. Peace
@tribong_upos - But we do, my friend – straight from God! Check it out:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made… And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Joh 1:1-3, 14)
The Word was God, and the Word was made flesh. So God was made flesh – in the person of Ye’shua, whom most Christians in western countries call Jesus.
The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. (Psa 118:14)
In order to get the full impact of that verse, we need to look at the original wording when it was written. “The LORD” was translated into English from the Hebrew “Yah”, the shortened, affectionate name of God – Yahweh. The word translated as “salvation” is the Hebrew word ye’shua. So what that verse is saying is that God (Yah, Yahweh) has become our Ye’shua (or salvation)!
Seen in that light, Ye’shua’s statement below makes perfect sense:
I and my Father are one. (Joh 10:30)
We do get our salvation straight from God my friend! He walked among us. As we learn from scripture, he was dying to forgive and bring grace to his children. Praise be to God! Peace
@AOK4WAY - As you know, I respect that your beliefs on this are different from mine. I believe that moral teachings can be just as valuable from a human source as from one of divine origin, perhaps more so, because a fellow human being is subject to the same temptations and vulnerabilities that the rest of us are. I thank you as always for reading my views and beliefs, and for sharing yours.
@lonelywanderer2 - As always, the pleasure was mine my friend. Peace
@musterion99 - I write my beliefs on the subject, but I certainly respect yours. Thanks for reading, and for your feedback!!!
@lonelywanderer2 - You’re welcome. I thought I would at least reply from a scriptural reference, even if you don’t believe those scriptures.
This entry is exactly the same way I see it. If Jesus is God as the catholics put it (i was raised catholic) then he would have stated in “his” book,” I am making a new religion and this is what it is…it will be called so-and -so…mass will be held sundays no if-and-or-buts…and these are the rules…there shall be no other sects. period” I mean he pretty much did that in the Torah, right? yet people honestly dont see it. but okay, whatever. anyways….great post!!
@Silent_abby_MyMy - Thank you; I am glad you enjoyed it!!!